purgatory, part 2

TIEPOLO, Giovanni Battista
The Madonna of Mount Carmel (detail)
1730s
Oil on canvasPinacoteca di Brera, Milan
Other works by the artist...

because it was such a rousing conversation, and as rousing conversations are apt to go, we got a bit tangential yesterday -- but i can't thank you enough for your input!

i received a private email saying that while we have all weighed in on what we feel about purgatory, there wasn't *enough* Scriptural discussion. i would love for that to happen in this thread, if at all possible.

i am citing from julie d's list of scripture she provided in her wonderful piece from august entitled purgatory 101 - please, let's keep our discussions here directed along the lines of what Scripture says - of course, we can say how we *feel* about said Scripture that supports the doctrine or what you take away from it after reading the Word, but this discussion should be more biblically-based, if that's okay with you :)

for your ease of reference:

These are some of the scriptural references used in the Catholic teachings on purgatory.

These are some of the scriptural references used in the Catholic teachings on purgatory.


We must be spotless and pure in God's presence.
Rev 21:27
Matt 5:8

Christ promised there was punishment that exacted what was due but wasn't endless. (And Paul supported this teaching.)
Matt 5: 20-26
Matt 12:32
Matt 18:21-35
Matt 25:31-46
Luke 12:58-59
Heb 9:27
Psalm 99:8

This punishment isn't in Hell because you can't be saved through hellfire. Also, there's no punishment in Heaven.
1 Corinthians 3:10-16
2 Corinthians 5:9-11
Hebrews 12:6, 11

Those who are alive can pray for those who are dead (and vice versa).
1 John 5:16-17
Luke 16:19-31
2 Maccabees 12:38-46
Sirach 7:33

in continuation of a comment lup said yesterday about praying for the dead:

What? I don't see the connection because Paul also says in his teachings, "why do look for the living amungst the dead" Mormons use this kind of language also. This just doesn't make sense. You can be thankful for someones life, but you can't pray for them once they're dead. They're dead...

restating the fact that the Catholics enjoy the additional books from the apocrypha, in 2 Maccabees 12:46:

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

this Word clearly supports the idea of praying for the dead in order to loose them from their sins. clearly.

from what I can see of the scriptures, including the one's you posted, it's over. You're either written on the lamb's book of life or not. In other words, to me, purgatory is anti-calvinistic which is kind of where I'm coming from....more later. ~~lup

i would love for this conversation to continue, but am understand that we will all be coming from our different points of view according to our respective faiths; i am hopeful we are mature enough to have some really wonderful open dialogue as long as we keep it respectful (so far, so good!).

from the quiet-but-thoughtful philothea rose:

If we are merely purified only by our belief in Christ with no action or atonement for our wrongs, then why in Scripture does Christ exhort us to pick up our cross, or why does Paul tell us in Colossions 1:24 that he is "...completing what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body..."? How can there be anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ? It isn't that Christ's sufferings are inadequate, but what is lacking is our participation in His sufferings. (emphasis added)

that is the first time anything hit me like a ton of bricks. of course, Christ's suffering are not inadequate! but our participation? wow.

Also, in Matthew 5:26 Jesus says of the sin against the Holy Spirit, that "it will not be forgiven, either on this age or in the age to come." Now, if souls are not held accountable for their sins after they die because they have already been cleansed at the cross, then why the mention of the ability to be forgiven in the age to come?~~rose

this is the kind of discussion i am looking for :)

despite the fact that we are all going to respond to it according to our respective faiths, i think i would love to hear more from everyone.

let's continue to enrich each other's lives.