watching "Mary, the Mother of Jesus" on the Science Channel may be a bit skewed as far as their message may be concerned.
oy.
without raising a total firestorm with the following question, one of the more interesting sidebar-type comments the sidebar-type commentator (read: scholar) made was about the "many brothers and sisters Mary had given birth to after Jesus" that were made mention in "several places in the Gospels."
uh....oh. really.
really?
where, exactly? and once the words are found referring to all of His sibs, could you please indicate the origin of these words?
thanks in advance :)
20 comments:
Penni, I'm guessing they're referring to Matthew 12:46-50: "While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him."
As far as I understand the Church has always taught that "brothers" was equivalent to "cousins" in Jesus' time.
Also Mark 3:31-35 (same story).
And Mark 6: 3 is where the sisters come in: "Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"
Many believe that James (founder of the church in Jerusalem) was Jesus' brother, also Mary's son. Obviously half brother because they had different fathers!
I know that this is not the understanding of the RC church - but that would explain the comments.
Protestants do believe in the virgin birth - but not that Mary continued to be a virgin for her life. In other words she had intercourse and yes other children were born. There is nothing in scripture to suggest otherwise (or indeed to support that claim other than the references to Jesus' brothers and sisters - which of course COULD be more distant relatives but it's unlikely)
I don't think this is a debate worth getting excited about. But then as a Protestant I don't revere Mary any more than Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist or Sarah wife of Abraham and mother of Issac ... and therein lies the real difference.
Lovely to see some real discussion again Penni. I'd missed it.
Hope you are feeling a bit better ...
Mark 6:2-3 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible]
2and sabbath having come, he began in the synagogue to teach, and many hearing were astonished, saying, `Whence hath this one these things? and what the wisdom that was given to him, that also such mighty works through his hands are done?
3Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?' -- and they were being stumbled at him.
Wow! Merry Christmas and all that jizz. I will see you Wednesday.
ahhh, lorna - the discussions like this shall probably cease as of next week when i return to work at the hospital and cannot moderate as well as i can while i am at home :)
as a former Protestant, i understand one's hesitation about elevating Mary beyond that of say Elizabeth or John the Baptist. but as i learn more about her, i find she is worthy of the honor as in "honor thy father and thy mother" because if we are to model our lives after that of Jesus, it would only be right to do so! also, she gave birth to Jesus - is the mother of God. that in and of itself is worthy of more than a passing notice.
/tangent
still looking for word origins - you know how we say "you are my sister" or "hey, bro" - is this the same, i.e., slang that was used? also wasn't it (brother) used for the word "cousin" also, agreeing with sister susan, above? this is why i am seeking word origins - our pretty pitiful english language is far different than the Greek or Hebrew that can have many definitions...
Merry Christmas, neil :)
I'm no expert in Greek, but I can look it up. The word in the Mark passage for brother is adelphos, for sisters, adelphe.
They ARE used both for biological siblings as well as kinsmen (women), and brothers/sisters in Christ.
The dictionary I looked at (The Blue Letter Bible) suggested that this passage means biological siblings of Jesus primarily because of the passage in Matthew 1:25, where it says that Joseph did not "know" Mary UNTIL she had given birth to her firstborn, Jesus. Apparently there is another Greek phrase that could have been used if the Gospel author had meant that Joseph never had sex with Mary.
I'm no judge of the quality of the Greek lexicon -- I'm just pointing out what's there.
Here's a thought. Maybe Jesus' only-child status is like Mary's virginity: it's a theological truth, not necessarily a biological one.
Mary Christmas, Penni.
Oy, I'm not even touching this one. With such a readership on your blog that cuts across faith traditions, you do like to open this place to some controversy now and then, don't you Penni? :)
But I do wish you a very wonderful Christmas, and I rejoice that you will be able to return to work.
Peace
Talmida's comment made me think of something a wise soul told me a few weeks ago that I've been chewing on ever since.
Everything in the Scriptures is true. Some of it even happened.
That's my semi-heretical thought this Christmas Eve!
Talmida and Susan speak wisdom.
From another "semi-heretic" I suppose.
Hi Penni, first, Merry Christmas! 2006 began for me in a friendly debate with Lorna on this topic over at my blog. Please read the January post Did Jesus Have Brothers" at http://beaconforlife.blogs.com/pastoral_coach/2006/01/did_jesus_have_.html
Feliz Navidad!
The link is not copying right. it ends with...
did_jesus_have_.html
Merry Christmas Penni!
Merry Christmas, FMN :)
thank you all for stopping in for a visit on the busiest (and one of the holiest) days of the year! nice to see some old faces resurface (hector!! -- what a difference a year makes for you, eh?) and talmida, i was hoping you would have stopped by.
i have been given so much to think about lately and have been pondering them and discussing them with my husband when he is agreeable to discussing them...he is a "cradle Catholic" and his faith is very solid because it was what he was taught. there is no disrespect intended in that statement, it is almost like the faith of a child: he was taught it as a child, he still believes it, although i think he would admit to being challenged by some of my questions and thinking, regardless of whether or not he has been swayed ;)
hector, i am wondering if you ever followed up on lorna's question about how you would deal with the fact if He did, in fact, have siblings: would it change the way you think about Marian issues and the like. i'd love that for a follow-up post, maybe, but not tonight :)
blessings, all.
Hey Pen. Merry Christmas.
Love, Amy
If Jesus did have siblings, it seems to me that it would have to change the way one thinks about Mary.
Merry Christmas Penni!! So if Mary did have all these other children, why did she go and live with John the Apostle after the crucifiction?
nice thought, anon. hmmm. hmmm :)
" It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." ( Works of Luther, Vol. 11, pages 319-320; Vol. 6, page 510.)
He is not the only founding member of the Protestants to hold firmly to Mary as the Mother of God, ever-virgin.
anon - because James at least was busy building the church. And there's no biblical record of where Mary went - only that Jesus asked His beloved John to take care of Mary - not to abandon one another in their time of greatest pain, and disappointment. I like to think they needed each other - because they both loved Jesus.
James (Jesus' brother and founder of the church in Jerusalem) was NOT a follower of Jesus at this time. (It came later - see Acts - and it's doubtful that it would have been the place of comfort that Mary -would have needed)
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