i am on the brink of something and i know i have probably discussed this topic with my best good friends and felt like i was on the verge of *knowing* really, really *knowing* but then something happens and i simply fall short.i am going to open this up with the topic honora posted on her blog this morning: hearing the Word as it is meant to be heard --
i attended Mass this morning at my favorite place in the entire world; i needed to simply *be* so there i went. Fr. said his usual Mass in his usual monotone and it was nothing more than i ever expected it to be: he's hurried, he's harried, he mumbles, i forgot my magnificat, which was not his fault but mine. however, when i went to Pastor Charlie's church and listened to him preach - it was incredible. i felt as though the Word came alive for me - why must we as Catholics be forced to choose whether we receive the Word inside of us or receive it in the Eucharist? why can we not have both?But there is one thing I envy of non-Catholic Christians, and that is their ability to hear the Word as it was meant to be heard.We hear the Word in much monotone, we pray in monotones, and yet, there was never a more Passionate personality on the earth. "How I have longed to eat this Passover with you before I suffer" and "Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy burdened; I will give you rest" and "I go to prepare a place for you... if it were not so, I would have told you."
but i am digressing. (we can actually discuss both since it is Advent and all)
back to honora's thread -- she went further and said:
Now imagine this someone Wonderful looking into your eyes saying these things with the greatest Love. Imagine Him reaching for your hand, or touching your face. Hear the inflections; imagine the smile. Imagine the quiet Fire of Him while reading His love in Scripture.are you kidding me?
honestly?
i cannot.
in her comments section, i stated (and i am really putting myself out here, but such is life and such is me...): i have never, ever imagined Jesus looking into my eyes and saying these things...touching my face...hearing His inflections. God knows i don't even daydream about heaven; it's like a fantasy to me that i dare not dream about.
never. not one time and if i do allow myself to *go there*, i end up feeling like it is fantasizing and i have no business doing so i brush those thoughts away and divert my attention to something else.
Lord, have mercy -- can anyone understand this?
i have received some wonderful advice from honora, cubeland mystic, and a dear friend over the telephone...i feel as though i am on the brink or edge of something beyond anything i have ever imagined. i feel as though if i simply let go, it would happen, but i am afraid.
my biggest admission of all:
is there something wrong with me? how do i *get* there? if i had this sort of passion for the One who may harbor that type of passion for me, perhaps i wouldn't be so quick to look elsewhere to have that particular need met.what.
am.
i.
so.
afraid.
of?
that maybe He'll see right through me...
22 comments:
You're not alone. I've never, ever imagined that either. And I'm afraid to.
He already does (see right thru you)... and He loves you still. And more than that. Isn't is amazing? It's a leap of Faith...sometimes lacking in what we call "logic"... that this God, Creator of Heaven & Earth should love us (ie: you....ie: me).... Incredible. That He would come to earth, to live as a human being (what kind of Love is THAT?)... despite all our "faults" (for lack of a better word). "Greater love hath no man than this..." His love is not dependent on you. Your hope is dependent on Him... We pry open our hearts & accept/embrace/desire, as He won't "force" His way in. I can hear the hunger in your spirit, and it is a beautiful thing... Yes, it's "risky"...anything so fierce as the love of God would be...for a mere human being anyway...
Your thoughts & reflections are resonating in my heart...bouncing around like energized atoms... I was born Protestant, then became Catholic for many yrs, and now am Protestant again....from that perspective, I feel some sense of "kinship", and know (some, at least) of what you are referring to. And yet, we are more alike than different, I believe (and hope)....
Christmas blessings, Penni.
I have never had an experience such as Honora's. I don't aspire to.
You work in a hospital, Penni. Think of it: we see structure (anatomy); we hear function , the working (physiology). We can't see the heart, but we can hear it beating, pumping, keeping us alive.
We hear the Word Made Flesh with the ear of the heart. Notice that in icons the ears are usually so large they are out of proportion to the face and body.
Have a wonderful Christmas, Penni, and a New Year of Grace.
dear penni, you and honora have pulled me out of my so recently self imposed reduction of commenting on blogs :)
I posted this comment at honora's place too.
- - -
We have that most Passionate Person in the Eucharist, something no Protestant for all their passion has; I was one.
I am blessed with passionate priests and I feel sad for those who experience what you describe.
However, I am coming to learn that the responsibility to connect passionately with Jesus, with our Eucharistic Lord is mine and the blessing is that they most boring of priests cannot hinder this relationship...only I can.
I am not lecturing, no, no, just sharing. And I share with you the desire to press in to my blessed Lord with zeal and love and devotion and have him poured out in my life.
I would not trade, Eucharist - Living Word, sacred Scripture, sacred Tradition and the teaching of the Church for lonely bible only.
Dear one, I cannot agree that Protestants are the ones with the ability to hear God's Word as it was intended. I can't. The earliest of the early Church Fathers and the scriptures themselves show is that the Word was meant to be heard in the Liturgy of the Word and in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I do understand what you mean about the tragedy of these forms being presented in dull and perfunctory ways. A shame to be sure. But I could never return to the varied individualized interpretations of my dear bible only Christians who even for all their zeal are missing the greatest treasure.
Let us passionately pursue the One who so passionately pursued us and Who continues to in every Mass.
I imagine I didn't make much sense either but you and penni did pull me out of my newly self imposed reduction of blog commenting :)
Much brotherly love to you. May your heart, mind, soul and strength be filled with Jesus this Christmas.
- - -
And penni, I would add here that I love and have a deep respect for my Protestant heritage. I am grateful that my journey Home began with the many good and wonderful things my Protestant faith and practice gave me and I wish to express my love for my Protestant friends with whom I share a common baptism. I am unabashedly Catholic now and in the grace of God, shall be until I meet him face to face.
I remain, yours,
O
Vintage Penni. I love these questions.
My answer is that Jesus' eyes are full of love and looking at you -looking for you - and His desire is that you'd look Him in the eye -just as you are.
:)
There is nothing that can separate us from His love. That's scripture. Romans 8.
I think you can have both - the Eucharist and the Word - we need both that's why God gave both. But we are responsible for own time - not just consumer Christians -we need real reading of the Word ourselves and to enter our prayer closest and speak to and LISTEN to the Father and the Son in co-operation with the Spirit.
Bless you for asking difficult questions.
He loves you Penni. He doesn't see through you - He looks at you and rejoices at what he sees. That's His grace!
Blessed Christmas. We worship God incarnate with the full knowledge and joy of the Risen Christ. For me that's the miracle :)
I respectfully beg to differ with Onionboy. "Lonely Bible only" Are you kidding me????? There is no "only" when it comes to the Word of God. It is God's self-revelation to us. It is rich, rich, rich in heritage, tradition, truth, prophecy, poetry - the list goes on. I guess if one reads it as one would read the dictionary, one might not get much from it. But if one reads with the guidance and infilling of the Holy Spirit, then one gets pointed utterly and completely to Christ. God speaks to His children through His word.
No need to feel sad for this Protestant, not at all. God has intervened and 'interrupted' my life in ways that go beyond all 'reasoned' and earthly comprehension. He has passonately pursued me, and in turn, caused me to run after Him.
As a sidebar, I wish the chasm between Catholic and Protestant would cease. And I'm sorry, but I see the intention to separate coming mainly from the Catholic blogs. Why, it's as if some Catholics don't recognize that anyone else is Christian. That wouldn't be the case, now, would it? And if it is, I wish someone would tell me about that. Comments on my blog are open to anything you have to say.
(Penni, of course I KNOW you, and I know where you stand, so please don't take this to heart. If you feel my comment is too harsh, please feel free to delete it; I won't be offended.)
Let me also add, Pen, that we are fallen people. Look at Romans - we have a natural bent to pursue 'self gratifying' things. We do NOT naturally seek God. Please know there is nothing wrong with you. God is THE only one who can change our hearts. I see Him working in your all the time! Consider this: There is no particular place call "there." There is no unattainable place for you to "get." Right here, right now, God IS sanctifying you; right here, right now you are walking this Christian life. He IS in the process of completing the work HE began in you. Also, read in Psalms, King David. Now there's a man, torn and troubled, and depressed and everything else - yet God called him a man after His own heart. So you, Pen, child of God - take heart! God's Holy Spirit dwells in you, and your hope is in Him.
I'm sorry this is so long! I'm just very passionate.
If I may offer something that actually has given me that very experience ... Ignatian contemplation. That makes it sound so very difficult I know.
How about this? Take the verses and imagine yourself in the scene as they are being read. This works best with the Gospels at first, naturally, but later it is surprising what will come to you with less concretely placed verses.
Similar to meditation while praying the rosary, one simply imagines that the scene is happening in front of them, or that they are in the scene itself. You can meditate on one scene for a week or for a single prayer time.
What is the weather like? How are they dressed? How does the ground sound crunching under your feet? What does the crowd (or emptiness, depending on the scene) feel like? What expression does Jesus wear? How do the words "hit" you?
These are things we all can imagine and that God will use to reach us.
For instance, I always had a great deal of trouble with the Beatitudes, in the Luminous Mysteries where Jesus is proclaiming the kingdom.
I kid you not, one day I was sitting there, eyes shut, imagining Jesus sitting on the hillside, a gaggle of disciples around him, the people below him listening. Suddenly I was shocked beyond belief when He looked over at me, patted the ground next to Him and said, "Come here, little sister." Wow.
God gave us our imaginations to use ... give it a try.
As a sidebar, I wish the chasm between Catholic and Protestant would cease. And I'm sorry, but I see the intention to separate coming mainly from the Catholic blogs.
Gayla, I think it depends on the blogs that you read. I have come away buffeted and bruised from several of the commenters on your very blog (not you yourself, of course) because the second the word Catholic has been raised the vitriol has begun. Which is why I no longer comment there. I think the problem cannot be placed at anyone's feet more than the other.
To place blame just adds fuel to the fire.
Discussions like this (and this one is mild compared to some that I have seen) really sadden me.
I am utterly saddened by any hint of "triunphalism" wherever I find it. I hated it when I was a Protestant, and I still hate it as a Catholic. And just as nobody has the corner on the market for thinking and saying that they are "the Church" more than others are, nobody has the corner on the market for passionate following after Jesus either.
I am a Catholic convert from a Protestant heritage that gave me much (but also, to be completely honest, "robbed" me of much other). I carry a passion for God and a deep love for the diversity of the Bible. And I don't read it like a textbook. This would be--and was--the case were I a Protestant or a Catholic. My passion for God in Christ is not a function of the church with which I have chosen to affiliate myself. It is a function of my neediness before God (aren't we all?) and my crying out for more of God to fill me....
I became and will remain Catholic in a large part because of the Eucharist, and the supreme importance that it came to hold in my life. That's not a judgement on anyone; it is simply a statement of my journey.
As I seemed to be cursed with bad examples of leaders and Christians when I was a Protestant, I now seem to be blessed with wonderful, passionate examples as a Catholic. Some other people's experience may be the opposite of that. I feel sad about this, but it seems to be reality.
What I am trying to say is that if a person wants to follow Jesus passionately, to obey, to surrender, to be transformed, and to become what God wants...the lion's share of the responsibility will always lie with them to pursue God in whatever place they find themselves, just as God is always--whether we realize it or not--pursuing us.
Can we ever leave aside descending to bickering with each other over "the truth" and leave others be while we seek with all our hearts to follow Jesus and obey what he says to do? Call me cynic, but from what I have seen, I say no, we cannot....
For me, that pursuing God and leaving others be led to the Catholic Church. Some of my Catholic brothers and sisters will castigate me for saying the following, but I will not presume to assume that it will or should lead others down the same path.
My two cents, offered with respect for all, and wishes for peace.
Antony
http://tothequiet.blogspot.com
holiness!! i came in here just a bit ago (after seeing some apologia in my in-bin for email) to see what happened!!
i have copied and am printing all SIX FULL-SIZED PAGES OF MY COMMENTS and will be back to comment on my comments anon :)
much love to all, all respect that is due, you know i love each and every one of you and your opinions matter. it is truly my hope before anything is read by moi that no sniping occurred.
did any sniping occur? comfort & joy, comfort & joy, people :)
lorna, be careful using the word *vintage* and *penni* in the same sentence ;)
bbl.
what if you're right?
and He was just another nice guy?
what if you're right?
what if it's true?
they say the cross will only make
a fool of you..
what if it's true?
what if He takes His place in history
with all the prophets and the kings
who taught us love
and came in peace,
but then the story ends...
what then?
but WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG?
WHAT IF THERE'S MORE?
WHAT IF THERE'S HOPE YOU NEVER
DREAMED OF HOPING FOR?
WHAT IF YOU JUMPED?
JUST CLOSED YOUR EYES...
WHAT IF THE ARMS THAT CATCH YOU
CATCH YOU BY SURPRISE?
what if He's MORE THAN ENOUGH?
what if He's LOVE?
--nichole nordeman, "what if"
You are right, Penni. He will see right through you. To be even more pointed, He already has.
And He is calling you anyway.
Go to Him, Penni. He IS what you are looking for.
Go to Him.
In my own way, a way not intended to inflame at all, what Antony said: "
What I am trying to say is that if a person wants to follow Jesus passionately, to obey, to surrender, to be transformed, and to become what God wants...the lion's share of the responsibility will always lie with them to pursue God in whatever place they find themselves, just as God is always--whether we realize it or not--pursuing us." is what I was mainly trying to say. Triumphant? No. Happy to be unabashedly Catholic yes? Happy to be united in our common baptism with my Protestant brothers and sisters. Happy to affirm what I believe.
ok, before this goes any further: i am not saying anything about trading my Catholicism for Protestantism (at least i don't think i was...) i am saying, however, that our homilies are exceedingly dry and monotonous at times -- BLESS MY BRETHREN THAT HAVE WONDERFUL HOMILISTS!! -- and i have been a visitor at several parishes in my area and find the same thing.
that was what i was saying -- for me, i am wishing for the Word to be as penetrating to me as the Eucharist and yes, i agree that i have a gigantic repsonisibility in that. i understand that, i acknowledge that.
there are simply times when the Word falls a little short and i don't have the capacity to discern or take it apart - you know you have all witnessed a sermon that really left you thinking about what was said, hungry for more scripture, identifying with what the pastor is trying to impart: having the Word come alive in you. is that so wrong to desire that as well?
i like the Ignatian thinking julie d. and will look into that a bit more. i have so much reading to do now, i cannot imagine squeezing something more in! i did feel a difference in the way i was praying at Mass this evening, however. my desire for a closer relationship with Jesus is being spoken of by me in earnest and i am feeling drawn toward him in ways i never have been before.
i appreciate all responses herein, regardless of denomination. i think you all know that. i am seeking the Truth and know i will find it; God helps me through your comments, He truly does.
peace.
forgive my typos. it's late :)
Gayla, I am sorry you read my words as disrespect for Gods Word. "I respectfully beg to differ with Onionboy. "Lonely Bible only" Are you kidding me????? There is no "only" when it comes to the Word of God. It is God's self-revelation to us. It is rich, rich, rich in heritage, tradition, truth, prophecy, poetry - the list goes on."
The Protestant position is that the Bible is the sole authority for faith and practice, a claim that the bible itself does not make. The lonely comes from the reality that Protestants disagree and split and split again over what they believe the bible only says to them. This is very said for a church that was never meant to be divided and which, indeed, even the gates of hell will not prevail against. All the divisions made in the name of various and opposed interpretations set in motion by a bible only position is a lonely state when the church is intended to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic.
I don't feel sad for you as a Protestant. As a Catholic I rejoice with you in how God interrupts my life too, as he does in his word, in his church, in his Eucharist.
As a Catholic I fully believe that my Protestant brothers are my brother by our shared baptism and stated that in my first comment. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also agrees. What is much more common is to find many, many Protestants who do not believe that Catholics are Christian and recall many times over the years where people in the churches where I was pastor believed they needed to see their Catholic friends get saved and become real Christians. I regret that you have so misunderstood not only what I was saying but the spirit in which I spoke.
May your Christmas be a blessed one, full of the richness of the Word incarnate and the love and fellowship of family and of the family of God. Peace to you, my sister in Christ.
I love the bible. It is not a dry manual by any means for me and I am glad that it is not a manual for you either.
I also agree with you about the rich tradition of the bible and I also believe in the rich tradition of the teachings of the Church. Nowhere have I said that God does not speak to his children through his Word. I love it when God speaks to me through his Word, the bible. I also love it when he speaks to me through the real presence of his living Word in the Holy Eucharist.
when I said vintage and Penni in the same sentence ... erm ... I didn't mean it like THAT :)
laughing
Gayla wrote "As a sidebar, I wish the chasm between Catholic and Protestant would cease. And I'm sorry, but I see the intention to separate coming mainly from the Catholic blogs. Why, it's as if some Catholics don't recognize that anyone else is Christian."
I hear you sister. But I also want to say that there are many Protestant blogs who dismiss RC beleivers as "unsaved" - that gets up my nose.
We do disagree about many doctrinal things - (see Penni's more recent thread about Jesus' brothers) but they are NOT IMHO the MAIN thing.
We are called to love God with all our heart, mind and soul. We are called to love (and treat) our neighour as we would want done to us (with love, respect, understanding, compassion etc) - and we are called to share Jesus with others.
To me - the rest - how I view the Eucharist, what I believe about Mary, how I view the gifts ofthe spirit and speaking in tongues etc etc ) are - in some ways at least - the icing on the cake.
I do not believe that to get to the kingdom of God you have to be one denomination or another. No sir! I do believe that we get there on faith and by grace alone - and we need to confess that Jesus is Lord of ALL, and bend our knee in worship to HIM alone. That's it!
This season we rejoice that God became one of us - to save us from our sins - to reconcile us with the Father -and with that, I bless you ALL and wish you all a BLESSED, PEACEFUL Christmas full of His love and joy!
(((( to all))))
Onionboy, thank you for expounding on your position. I agree with you re: the divided church. No, it should not be this way, but with sinful, prideful, flawed human beings in the mix, you're going to find that, unfortunately.
Those who profess the name of Christ and who have received Him as Lord and Savior - those are my brothers and sisters - no matter what their local church affiliation or denomination is. I cannot assert who is saved and who isn't, other than being an observer of their fruit. But ultimately, only God know the heart.
Lorna said, "We are called to love God with all our heart, mind and soul. We are called to love (and treat) our neighour as we would want done to us (with love, respect, understanding, compassion etc) - and we are called to share Jesus with others."
I agree with you to a certain extent. Yes we are called to obey the greatest commandment, no doubt. But how we as Christians deal with 'the rest' as you say, IS indeed important. We cannot simply 'agree to disagree' just to avoid argument or confrontation. The truth is the truth, and it should be proclaimed. Paul didn't mince words or beat around the bush.
Julie - I e-mailed you. But just wanted to say here that I've never viewed any comments on my blog as 'vitriol.' I regret that you feel that way. Anyway, see my e-mail. :)
Thanks penni for your honesty. I struggle to know whether I should believe or not. It was good to read both what you said, and all the comments you received.
Penni ~ A bit late, but .... I'm right there with you on the "monotone" --- I'm not in the least bit surprised that my kids have no desire for church and/or scripture, the way it gets presented to them sometimes!
And, if it makes you feel any better .... this "reluctant nun" could (and often does, quietly to herself) say the exact same things, even down to the "What am I so afraid of".
Peace & blessings to you.
Gayla :) you wrote "We cannot simply 'agree to disagree' just to avoid argument or confrontation. The truth is the truth, and it should be proclaimed. Paul didn't mince words or beat around the bush."
I would like to add we are not called to disagree or debate for the sake of it either.
I believe we are called to present the truth IN LOVE - that way it sets people free to worship God more fully.
What I hear in Penni's blog is a longing for more of God - not a longing to debate RC v the rest :) I really don't see why she - and the rest of us - can't have both the Eucharist (in its richest sense) and passionate preaching on the word of God. I know I need both too!
I hate it that in some protestant traditions the Eucharist is celebrated a mere 4 times a YEAR. yikes ... our own church's decision to limit it to once a month (because it takes so long) is a shame too - I need both. And a whole outpouring of the spirit of God between Sundays too -
Bless you sister! Thanks again Penni for this discussion. I'm linking to it in a post I'm writing right now - probably published tomorrow ...
it's up - called real bread :)
BLESS MY BRETHREN THAT HAVE WONDERFUL HOMILISTS!!
I am blessed, Penni, with a homilist who breathes life into Scripture so that listening to him is like taking a walk with Jesus in the Holy Land.
I have begun podcasting his homilies on our church website. If you are interested in hearing him, e-mail me. I'd be interested in your comments.
(He keeps most of his homilies between 7 and 12 minutes. He's not really long winded :))
Post a Comment